Andy Short: I just wanted to see what I looked like with hair. I haven't had any since before the army, 25 years ago.
Adina: @64,64 !It's Adina
Kris Robenolt: Andy, where do you get the props?
Chip: Very stylish, Andy.
Andy Short: The tool bar just popped up for me. AAAA, not sure.
Chip: There is a suitcase in the lower right of the main Palace window.
Karie: @64,64 !It's Karie
Keith Wayne: @64,64 !It's Keith Wayne
Joe Walder: @64,64 !It's Joe Walder
Andy Short: That's what I did.
Chip: It holds the props. One of the reasons to get a registration code is the ability to use props completely.
Chip: Hi, newcomers.
Karie: Hi, By what time should we be here?
Andy Short: you have about 20min
Andy Short: Who want's coffee, I'm buyn'
Chip: 7:30
Kris Robenolt: thanks, I found them
Chip: Have people had a chance to look around here, go to other rooms, etc.?
Keith Wayne: Not yet
Kris Robenolt: I've looked in other rooms
Andy Short: I've done a few time over the weekend
Heidi Grunenberg: Hello everyone
Kris Robenolt: the backgrounds just seem to be different
Keith Wayne: I looked around the mansion or something a little last week. Pretty cool.
Nancy Vondrak: @64,64 !It's Nancy Vondrak
Adina: Hi!
Chip: Hi
Keith Wayne: I'll be right back. I have to get my coffee ready.
Chip: Wow, we're almost up to half.
Nancy Vondrak: Hi, everyone!
Nancy Vondrak: )APPLAUSE
Nancy Vondrak: Sorry, I was just playing!
Chip: Uh oh, she's discovered the sounds!
Nancy Vondrak: I'll try to behave
scigirl: @64,64 !It's scigirl
Nancy Vondrak: Hi Sci!
Chip: Actually, this is a good time to play around, to get used to how this works.
scigirl: hi everyone
Nancy Vondrak: )TEEHEE
scigirl: !I love the costumes
Nancy Vondrak: I couldn't resist
Nancy Vondrak: I haven't explored the costumes yet
Andy Short: )BELCH
Keith Wayne: Neither have I
Keith Wayne: gross
Chip: You need to be registered to make full use of them.
Keith Wayne: Oh
Jamie McCleese: The costumes make me laugh!
Nancy Vondrak: I teach hs so I'm used to gross
scigirl: )GUFFAW
Jamie McCleese: I like the sunglasses-very funny
Keith Wayne: I teach middle school, so I live in gross.
Andy Short: :it's a bit bright in here
Heidi Grunenberg: i understand that
Nancy Vondrak: I have 3 teenagers so I live in gross too lol
Jenn Vaschak: !Hey, guys! Warm house, comfy chair---I'm set!
Keith Wayne: It's bright because they are using those new florescent bulbs - twice the lumens for a fraction of the wattage.
scigirl: yeah this is not too bad of a deal
Chip: Hmmm, gettng crowded. We have a BIG class this semester.
Karie: I was playing around with avatars and found this one...
Keith Wayne: Is there a gym or something we can go to with more room?
Chip: All the rooms are exactly the same size.
Keith Wayne: :)
Keith Wayne: :(
Keith Wayne: :)
*** ; scigirl is Painting
Andy Short: Karie where did you find the avitars?
Karie: If you're a member, go to Avatars on the file above
Chip: Or the suitcase in the lower right.
Karie: Then I just played around. I actually don't remember. I saved it after I found it but that was a while ago.
Andy Short: found what I was looking for. just have to click around.
*** ; Kris is Painting
Karie: I remember. I went to Bookmarks and Avatar Palace.
Jim Raber: @64,64 !It's Jim Raber
Keith Wayne: Hi Jim!
Nancy Vondrak: Hi Jim
Jim Raber: Hi
Jim Raber: how is everyone?
Nancy Vondrak: Please refrain from calling me "Your Majesty" lol
Adina: lol
Jamie: good.. how are you?
Jim Raber: good
Karie: I'm loving an online class, sitting here in my PJ's & cozy robe with a cup of hot tea.
scigirl: okay now that I made myself look like a female elvis anyone know how to take this stuff off?
Karie: Drag the pieces to the suitcase or trash can.
Nancy Vondrak: Keep in on, it's you!
*** ; scigirl is Painting
Chip: Or open the suitcase and click "naked".....
Keith Wayne: @64,64 !It's Keith Wayne
Nancy Vondrak: Hi Keith
Keith Wayne: Hi
scigirl: Thanks that's better
Karie: I was afraid to try it with this avatar I have now! I wasn't sure what "naked" entailed!
Andy Short: @64,64 !It's Andy Short
Keith Wayne: I went to the Avatars room and tried one on.
Chip: Yeah, it's not as bad as it sounds...
Jamie: funny
Keith Wayne: I guess I needed to hit "save" or something?
scigirl: )TEEHEE
Andy Short: I didn't do right either Keith
Keith Wayne: {HOHOHO
Keith Wayne: that didn't work
scigirl: Matt how did you turn red?
Chip: We'll start officially in a few more minutes.
Nancy Vondrak: )APPLAUSE
Karie: If you click on Avatars & Member Avatars, it will show you what you look like. Click on one of the F1, F2, etc and click "Save This." I saved several.
Denise: Hello!
Chip: If you haven't already, then take a few minutes to explore. A quick way to get to other rooms is with Options menu.... Goto Room....
Joe Walder: )BOOM
Joe Walder: )BOOM
scigirl: You are really good at this karie
Keith Wayne: @64,64 !It's Keith Wayne
Nancy Vondrak: I'm afraid of not getting back to this room
Denise: Me too!
Tanja: @64,64 !It's Tanja
Nancy Vondrak: Hi Tanja
Andy Short: you did it keith
Chip: This is the lobby. Just choose it in Options... Goto Room...
Keith Wayne: Yeah!
Karie: Nice look, Keith.
Keith Wayne: thanks :)
Jamie: is there a way to make the chat log window bigger so it is easier to see?
Keith Wayne: Well, I have AOL open. Are we going to use it too?
Karie: grab the corners and drag
Jamie: I did that as I asked- sorry. but thank you!
Chip: Yes, and you should... Just point at the lower right conner of the window and pullit oout.
Karie: I don't know how to use AOL chat! I loaded it, though.
Denise: Thanks, I was wondering the same thing!
Chip: That's less important now that we're here, Karie.
Karie: Good
Chip: OK, let's get started.
Chip: Some general things:
Chip: 1. sometimes you will lose the connection and get kicked off. Just come back as soon as you can. No big deal; most chat rooms have that problem, depending on your internet connection.
Chip: 2. Closing Palace and restarting it often fixes problems that you might have
Chip: 3. A common pattern will be that we will have general questions about course administration issues (deadlines, assignments, etc), followed by
Chip: specific course content questions, followed by exercises about the evening's topic, followd by a discussion of the upcoming assignment.
Chip: Save questions about the assignment until the end, if you can.
Chip: OK, so.... any questions about how the course will be run?
Andy Short: sounds good
Jamie: not yet~
Karie: What if we have to miss a class? I have P-T conferences one Tues night coming up. Can't get out of those.
Jenn Vaschak: During office hours, you can be reached through the Palace and by AIM? Do you have a preference?
Chip: Try not to miss too many, just as you would with an f2f class. An advantage here will be that the transcipts (logs) of the Palace sessions will be online.
Andy Short: That's a good question about PT Conf.
Chip: Either one, Jenn. I sometimes forget to start one or both programs so an email to nudge me can help.
Karie: My school blocks me out of all chat sites so I can't do it from my school computer.
Jenn Vaschak: I can through using the Palace, but not AIm when I'm at school.
Chip: That's common, Karie. Sometimes people have been able to get their tech people to open port 9998 for them, which allows palace to work.
Karie: It wouldn't let me load or go to Palace. I'll try talking to the tech guy.
Jim Raber: another option for AIM might be meebo.com. Its a website that emulates Instant Messenger. Might get around some port blocking stuff done at some locations
Chip: Yeah, there's nothing I can do about that except encourage people to open up the port.
Chip: Good idea, Jim.
Chip: Other questions?
Keith Wayne: I can't think of any right now.
Denise: Not yet, but I am sure Iwill have some soon!
Chip: OK, we're going to start the ID process now.
Chip: We have a big group, so I want to divide you into groups quickly.
Chip: I'll make some general points about needs assessments and then give you something to do in groups. OK?
Heidi: ok
Adina: k
Keith Wayne: ok
Andy Short: sounds good
Jenn Vaschak: ok
Matt Dockery: ok
Denise: ok!
Jamie: ok
Kris: ok
scigirl: o
Jim Raber: ok
Nancy Vondrak: k
Chip: One thing that the instructional design process stresses is that there should be a real need for any instruction. That is,
Chip: you should be teaching something that will be useful to the audience and others and that they do not already know.
Chip: A key point about this is that you should look at the results you want.
Chip: and at the results you are now getting, and see if there is a gap.
Chip: For example, a company might want better productivity or fewer accidents ro something.
Chip: It's trickier to decide this in educational settings, but still possible.
Chip: For example, better test scores, better graduation rates, etc.
Chip: The second question is about the cause of this gap in results.... is it a lack of knowledge and skills?
Chip: There are a lot of other reasons for people not doing well, but only if the audience lacks the required knowledge and skills are education and training useful.
Chip: So, let's divide into groups. Here's how it will work.
Chip: First I will describe the exercise. Then I will name 3 or 4 people and give them a room to go to.
Chip: Use the Options menu.... Goto Room... to go to the room mentioned .
Chip: Try to do so as quickly as you can so that we can figure out who hasn't been assigned a room yet.
Chip: Ready?
Karie: Yes
Lauren Davidson: yep!
Keith Wayne: Ready!
Heidi: yep
Andy Short: yup
Jenn L: ready
Nancy Vondrak: k
Kris: yes
Joe Walder: sure
Jamie: yes
Matt Dockery: yeah
Adina: yes!
Jenn Vaschak: sure
Denise: Yes
Chip: OK. Actually, this time, I have two exercises. Each group can decide for itself which one to do first.
Chip: 1. In educational settings, how might we decide on the results we want and how to measure them? Where do these things come from?
Chip: 2. What other explanations of poor performance are there besides people not having the knowledge and skills they need?
Chip: OK, so Joe Walder, Heidi, Adina, Karie.... you are in the Conference Room
Chip: Again.... Options menu.... Goto room.
Chip: Great....
Tanja: I am here too
Chip: Jennifer J,Jenn L,, rsynk, Lauren..... Fountains.
Chip: OK, Tanja
Chip: Kris, Tanja, Matt, Nancy.......Field
Chip: Kris Rob, Keith, Andy, Jenn V..... Zoo.
Chip: denise, Keith, Andy, Jamie, JIm.... Cabin.
Chip: Oops, Keith can't be in both places.
*** You now have wizard privileges.
*** ; Chip is Painting
*** ; Chip is Erasing
Lauren Davidson: Hi, Chip!
Chip: Hi
Lauren Davidson: The Fountain room is wondering how much time we have for these assignments...
Chip: I'm going to visit each room, so I'll talk about it with each group.
Lauren Davidson: oh, ok! sounds good!
Received file conference_room.gif
Chip: Hi, How's it going?
Karie: Have we answered #1 yet? Should we come up with a list of where/how we come up with WHAT we want kids to be able to know/do and how we measure it?
Chip: You should be prepared to report back to the class some of your main points on this.
Adina: I think we should sum it up before moving on.
Joe Walder: OK
Karie: Yeah
Adina: how long do we have?
Joe Walder: well we have content standards
Heidi: district goals
Chip: We'll probabably come back together as a class about 8;15, give or take.
Karie: District initiatives and building initiatives (separate from curriculum goals)
Heidi: Past expereince
Karie: Areas of poor performance in the classrooom
rsynk: however i really think it is important to know your students and try to figure out their needs
Jennifer J.: I agree. Between the federal and state mandates as far as what gets tested and how they should score
Chip: Hi, how's it going?
rsynk: you can do a lot of pretesting. much is available on line.
Jennifer J.: 100% agree with yoursynk
Jenn L: I'd like to see a congressmen teach a child with a third grade reading level how to calculate light years
Jennifer J.: I'd like to see the congressman do it!
Jenn L: Hi Chip we finished question #2
Lauren Davidson: It's going good, Chip. We've worked on question 2 & now we're brainstorming question 1
rsynk: things are going well. Are we supposed to record this somehow?
Chip: We'll probably come back together as a class around 8:15, give or take.
Jenn L: ok
Jennifer J.: k
Lauren Davidson: You'll see us there! = )
Chip: Oh, good point, rsynk.... You can record the conversations that you are part of with File menu,... Open log file.
rsynk: i'm doing that, but what about for everyone else in the main room?
Chip: you can copy and paste from the log file, too (for the period before you open the file). Just put into a work file or something.
rsynk: okay
Chip: I'll be asking the groups to report back to the group. And we'll continue the discussion in a Moodle forum.
Jennifer J.: I noticed that there is a transcript of palace
Jennifer J.: are these conversations in the transcripts also
Chip: Yes
Jennifer J.: thanks
Chip: Well, yesthe servier logs everything. But it can be hard to read the breakout groups because they are recorded in time sequence.
Jennifer J.: yes, that does make it difficult!
Chip: Mostly, we just want to reoprt back to the group.
Jennifer J.: ok
Chip: I'm moving on.
Jenn L: bye
Keith Wayne: A snowstorm could help with data overload.
Andy Short: did you read the fist part of ch 2 that states that before you make the decision consider a different route?
Chip: HI
Keith Wayne: what page?
Kris Robenolt: snow day!!
Keith Wayne: not tomorrow
Kris Robenolt: I'll take any day
Jenn Vaschak: Where do you live?
Andy Short: page 18
Chip: I'll be asking the groups to report back to the class in 5 or 10 minutes.
Jenn Vaschak: Ok
Kris Robenolt: ok
Kris Robenolt: Youngstown
Received file cabin.jpg
Chip: Hi all.
Jim Raber: not that it actually achieves those goals....
Jim Raber: Hi
Chip: I'll be asking the gorups to report back to the class in 5 or 10 mins.
Jim Raber: ok
*** Time to wrap things up and come back to the lobby.
Keith Wayne: @64,64 !It's Keith Wayne
Andy Short: look we are all back in just about the same place as before. kind of like students in a classroom
Chip: Welcme back.
Keith Wayne: that's what we are
Keith Wayne: wouldn't 3D be cool?
Chip: Yep, there's a whole sociology of places like Palace and Second Life.
Karie: I like sitting on the table...
Jennifer J.: Yes, I am enjoying changing clothes way too much to be natural
Andy Short: need a piano
Chip: OK... first question about figuring out the results in education. Any groups want to tell us what they thought?
Karie: Joe, do you want to give our list?
Joe Walder: sure
Joe Walder: we have a lot
Joe Walder: district goals
Joe Walder: individual school initiative
Andy Short: in our group for #1 the decision comes from the top, Fed-state-district
Joe Walder: past experience
Joe Walder: areas of poor performance
Joe Walder: state testing
Joe Walder: any assement tools
Joe Walder: trickle down from teachers in higher grades
Joe Walder: placement in classes
Karie: classroom observation of where students struggle
Karie: preassessments, post assessments
Lauren Davidson: Andy, our group had the same idea -- most results are mandated by fed/state gov'ts & then district goals
Jenn Vaschak: When you say class placement, do you mean tracking?
Keith Wayne: We also talked about how even though the directives come from the state, it is our job to help draw in and connect students to get those results.
Chip: What is the difference between specifying a curriculum and deciding on the results you want?
Karie: our district goals are 100% aligned with state mandates so I tend to lump the two together
Karie: I decide on the results I want based on where I see students not meeting goals
Karie: Or is that a "need"?!
Keith Wayne: Is what a need?
Andy Short: We use standards based instruction. Standards drive our insturciton
Karie: comparing where students are to where they should be
Keith Wayne: Andy is right.
Matt Dockery: Andy is right on
Jennifer J.: curriculum is how we get to the results
Kris: but what if the subject you are teaching has no state standards?
Chip: Srictly speaking the need is that ifference between desired and actual that karie just mentioned.
Andy Short: we dont teach it
Nancy Vondrak: that came up in our group
Jenn Vaschak: In Spec ed, iep goal drive our instruction. For students with a functional curriculum, standrads don't drive the process
Chip: But it is important to think in terms of results.
Andy Short: jen but they still must meet the standards on the test
Jim Raber: some stuff taught could be more practical in nature, someone in my group gave the example tieing a shoe...
Karie: for skills-based activities, there may be no particular standard driving a student's ability to perform a task
Matt Dockery: Even special ed. students have to have a certain % pass the state tests
Jenn Vaschak: Our students with a strictly functional curriculum are alternatively assessed
Andy Short: if you look hard enough at all the content areas there will be a standard
Kris: but what if you teaching something not in a k-12 environment?
Keith Wayne: We want to prepare students for life, so as teachers we need to use our minds and connect even standards based instruction to real life (wherever possible)
Heidi: even if there is no standard, there are skills they need to have
Jenn Vaschak: Yes, otherwise, we do have to address the content standards.
Keith Wayne: I used to teach swimming and both Red Cross and the YMCA had
Keith Wayne: standards
Chip: Just knowing stuff isn't very important unless you can use it for someting important.
Jenn Vaschak: Instruction always needs to be relevnt to be meaningful
Keith Wayne: And it was "life skills"!
Jenn L: that is what our district is focusing on they call it essential learning
Heidi: some of them are state mandated but some of them are based upon what we are accomplishing in other areas
Keith Wayne: Sometimes, instruction may not seem relavant if we are building foundations, but then we need to make learning fun.
Andy Short: Keith, that is were the ID process comes to play i think
Keith Wayne: Yep. A big part of being "fun" is being prepared.
Chip: Yes, skills and knowledge can be important if either it can be used directly or because it is necessary to learn other things that can be used.
Nancy Vondrak: but sometimes it is hard to make learning fun
Tanja: That can be part of the instruction too (to be interesting and challenging =fun for some).
rsynk: the real world isn't always fun either
Kris Robenolt: Why does learning always have to be fun?
Andy Short: all things in life are not fun, that is what i tell my students
Keith Wayne: If the teacher is prepared and has meaningful goals, students are more willing to put up with something that is not "fun" as long as it is purposeful
Jenn L: sometimes I think we worry too much about entertaining the students
Jamie: It doesn't always have to be fun but its nice when it is
Keith Wayne: It does not have to be fun
Jenn Vaschak: I agree.
Adina: i agree
Andy Short: jsut have to have a purpose!
Kris Robenolt: It's nice but not always practical
Nancy Vondrak: purposeful is probably more important
Chip: We
Keith Wayne: Okay, away with the fun, but lets keep teaching with focus and purpose\
Chip: will get back to motivation, etc. later.
Jenn L: definitely
Chip: How about the other question..... what other causes of poor performance are there?
Jim Raber: i think its more important to keep the subject relevant to the learner than fun....history is a prime example.
Karie: I try to always make sure my students know WHAT we're doing and WHY we're doing it
Keith Wayne: Lack of background knowledge.
Andy Short: Keith do you wnat to take that one
Matt Dockery: Learning disabilities are a huge cause of poor performance
Keith Wayne: We need to make sure that students have the proper foundations for what we are teaching.
Karie: Lack of access to materials or tools
Nancy Vondrak: a deterrant to performance can be attendance--failure to show up
Heidi: motivation
Jennifer J.: lazy
Jenn L: motivation
Jenn Vaschak: poor resources, poor scheduling
Keith Wayne: You can't teach fractions very well if students do not know their multiplication facts.
Heidi: basic needs are not met
Kris: problems retaining material
rsynk: family issues or lack of support from family
Chip: OK, learning disabilities would come in when peole have trouble learning.
Keith Wayne: We talked about lackof resources
Andy Short: lack of teacher motivation?
Chip: Motivation, resources, tools, are all good ones.
Jim Raber: not having enough evaluations to know where students are...
Tanja: Students must be mature enough for some topics.
Lauren Davidson: lack of consequences
Jenn Vaschak: not evaluating student success effectively
Andy Short: too many evaluations
Keith Wayne: We discussed the importance of pre assessment
Denise: Poor planning on the teacher's part.
rsynk: or the right kind of evals, jim
Chip: Notice that we're not talking here so much about whether people can or do learn it.... it's why they don'tget the results we want right now.
Keith Wayne: Most teachers do not do enough preassessment
Chip: Such as consequences.
Tanja: Yes. If students are not motivated to respond.
Karie: Maybe the instruction didn't really fit the goal
Chip: Why is it important to worry about these things?
Jenn Vaschak: maybe the goal didn't fit the kids
Jenn L: they all affect learning outcomes
Kris Robenolt: it's our job to get the results
Andy Short: yes Jenn
Jenn Vaschak: I think one of the biggest problems I hear is that students lack the prerequisite skills
rsynk: what's the point of teaching if you don't care about results?
Matt Dockery: They all result the end outcome of learning
Tanja: Because we do want to get good results.
Karie: Because sometimes even the best instruction will miss the mark for reasons other than learning & instruction
Chip: Also, if people do have the skillls and knowledge, then teaching them those things again isn't very useful.
Keith Wayne: When we clarify our instructional goals, we need to be as specific as possible.
Lauren Davidson: It's important to worry about these things to ensure the training/lesson does not promote these issues or poor performance
Andy Short: Do you feel we teach to mastery?
Nancy Vondrak: so that we can "cover our bases" and try to make the learning environment comfortable for everyone
Chip: Right, Karie
Keith Wayne: We need to know where students are and where they need to go in order to write our goals.
Nancy Vondrak: true Keith
Chip: OK, these are some good answers.
Keith Wayne: We also need to know why they are not performing as we design our instruction..
Heidi: and redeisgn
Jenn Vaschak: Reflection
Keith Wayne: reflect!
Chip: Robert Mager (the "father" of learning objectives) has a simple test.
Chip: He called it the "gun to the head test"
Chip: If you put a gun to their heads, can they do the task?
Keith Wayne: wow
Karie: That would certainly take care of motivation
Jennifer J.: How to test that one?
Kris Robenolt: interesting
Chip: If yes, then the problem was motivation, not a lack of skills and knowledge.
Matt Dockery: Yeah, the community, parents and public only care about results. Our 8th grade class missed passing the state tests by 3 points last year and the board wanted answerers why they did not pass, forgetting the fact that the group improved by 20 points from
Matt Dockery: the previous year
Keith Wayne: man
Jamie: wow..
Jim Raber: that calls into question the testing standards....
Nancy Vondrak: interesting, Matt
Jenn L: too much stress put on teachers
Chip: More specifically, Thomas Gilbert outlines 6 major classes of reasons for poor performance:
Denise: And districts who are also graded by the test results
Matt Dockery: Yeah, especially when teachers know their jobs are on the line
Heidi: Matt I hear that we were far above the state average but did not pass the test.. state test avage 44%
Chip: Lack of information needed, such as the manual for the machine, feedback about how well they are doing, etc.
Heidi: we scored a 70&
Chip: 2. lack of tools and resources needed
Chip: 3. lack of incentives
Karie: As a science teacher I totally get the tools/resources one
Chip: 4. lack of knowledge and kills
Chip: 5. lack of ability (e.g someone poor at match trying to become an accountant)
Chip: 6. lack of motivation
Tanja: We eliminated 4. 3 and 6 are similar.
Andy Short: sometimes we don't go for #1 and get the info about our clietel
Chip: Right, Karie, that would be important there.
Kris: aren't incentives motivation?
Jenn L: me too
Karie: Incentives come from the outside, motivation comes from the inside
Kris Robenolt: incentives help motivate
Chip: Yes Tanja, they are, but in this scheme incentives are external (pay, grades, etc.) while motivation is internal.
Matt Dockery: I see the resources as well
Chip: OK, so any questions to this point?
Andy Short: at time i feel i am overloaded with materials
Kris Robenolt: how do we overcome these?
Chip: Andy... do you mean generally in teaching or specifically in this class?
Kris Robenolt: incentives only help to motivate
Kris Robenolt: in teaching
Andy Short: for the math that i teach
Karie: I was feeling peer pressure to conform to others' appearances :)
Chip: Kris, that's a key question. Mostly in this course we will focus on overcoming the lack of knowledge and skills by teaching things.
Kris Robenolt: okay
Keith Wayne: Powerful teaching can go a long way.
Kris Robenolt: true
Matt Dockery: Luck..........
Chip: As teachers we often don't have much control over the other things.
Jenn L: what is that pray..god grant me the strength to change the things I can and accept the things I can't and the wisdom to know the difference. Focus on what you can change
Keith Wayne: It has more to do with student success than, say socioeconomic level.
Chip: Something like that, Jenn
Keith Wayne: to a point
Karie: In my building we serve underprivileged, low SES students, but we don't use that to make excuses for what they can & can't learn.
Keith Wayne: that's right
Karie: We CAN and DO make a difference
Andy Short: we all can learn we just have to tap into a different way
Jenn Vaschak: You don't need to make excuses. I come from the same type of district. it is just something we try to factor in and overcome
Chip: OK, let's look at this assignment, where a number of these things come together.
Keith Wayne: powerful teaching is the biggest indicator of student success and the planning we are discussing in this class is a big part of that powerful teaching
Chip: First, we will not be doing a full needs assessment, which involves data gathering, etc.
Chip: But we will do a kind of conceptual NA.
Chip: First, you should look at the results that ideally you want to achieve with this population.... better math performance, good writing, higher batting averages, etc.
Karie: Can it be that general?
Chip: Where do those come from? Standards, something else?
Chip: Yes, start out thinking big... then we'll focus in on a part of it.
Tanja: Can it be student evaluation?
Andy Short: funnel down
Chip: What do you mean, Tanja?
Chip: Yes, Andy.
Kris Robenolt: will we use a content standard?
Tanja: If students state that they, for example, feel more confident and better prepared for problem solving?
Chip: Some of you might, Kris, but try to put it into a larger context. What makes this important?
Kris Robenolt: in life?
Chip: That's a way of measuring something, Tanja, but what is the result that you are aiming at?
Andy Short: as part of the NA it would make a valid point to link up if you want to teach itl
Jenn L: like improving students attitudes towards science
Chip: Yes, Kris.
Karie: Is this basically getting at WHY do we wants students to know or be able to do this?
Andy Short: that would be tough jenn
Tanja: Teaching learning skills "by the way" while teaching math.
Chip: yes, Jenn... and that would lead to good results, such as them taking more sicence classes, making better decisions, etc.
Jenn Vaschak: meeting IEP goals
Chip: yes, Karie, exactly.
Chip: Could be, Jenn.
Keith Wayne: So if there is a standard or IEP goal, we should note that, but then link it to "life" as well.
Nancy Vondrak: Like students will need to learn this to use in their future school and work activiies (for example?)
Chip: Yes, Keith.
Andy Short: jenn i forgot... think big
Chip: Yes, perhaps, Nancy.
Jenn Vaschak: skills relevant to rela life
Chip: Also, you should consider how you might (if you could) measure success in this.
Chip: So the first step is to specify the big goals... the Optimals.
Karie: Do you mean the more general ones?
Jenn L: like giving a before and after questionnaire on attitude towards a subject
Kris Robenolt: wouldn't success be measured by if they could perform the skill with some percent of accuracy?
Andy Short: yes jenn, i have done that
Karie: Or the specific goal that's optimum for them?
Chip: The second step is to look at what is actually happning... the current test scores, graduation rates, and so on.
Tanja: That is what I had in mind to only related to learning skills and attitudes.
Chip: If you dn't actually have this data, you can use your own observations, etc.
Chip: No, Kris R... we are talking about measureing the results, not just the outcome of the instruction.
Andy Short: so in out case we just need to make a generalization?
Chip: Yes, Tanja, but again, start with the results you want and them move to ways to measure them.
Kris Robenolt: so the measurement may be that scores improve?
Chip: You need to say something like... good math skills lead to such good results as X, Y, and Z. We meaure those results in these ways.
Kris Robenolt: I'll digest that for awhile
Karie: Yeah--I think I'm getting a little confused.
Keith Wayne: I am observing and digesting
Chip: We are looking for, say, a higher percentage of people passing the OGT on the first try. The actuals would then be that only x % actually do so.
Jenn Vaschak: me too, Karie
Nancy Vondrak: it is a lot to digest
Jamie: yes it is
Matt Dockery: Yeah, I have to think about a lot of this stuff.
Chip: yes, it's a somewhat different way of looking at these issues.
Jennifer J.: with the ogt example, what, then, is the needs assessment
Kris: if you wanted to teach a program then would want them to first be confortable then from there build on knowledge? I'm trying to relate
Chip: But that's one reason why you will do drafts of the assignmeents. I want you to give it a try for your project and then get feedback from me.
Joe Walder: ok wait
Andy Short: need to look at what is lacking from the scores.
Joe Walder: let me get this straight
Joe Walder: our project would be the basis for something our students would use in later classes
Joe Walder: and we measure the succes according to stardards set down by the state
Keith Wayne: In my project I am planning on training teachers to use a program. So, I should go into a little detail on why I am training teachers in this - the usefulness for students in the classroom?
Chip: Your project will be something that actually matters fr some reason. We are trying to establish that reason.
Joe Walder: or in my case, a dean or dept. head?
Adina: isn't our NA explaining what the need is and basically why there is a need for it?
Chip: Kris, the question is why do they need to be comfortable? That's more a means to and end than the end itself.
Andy Short: If you build it they will come. i heard that somewhere
Keith Wayne: The secondhand importance for students as the reason I will be training teachers.
Chip: Yes, Keith, good example.
Chip: One important point here is that each project is going to be different in this.
Kris: so students want to make graphics would be why i would teach them photoshop?
Tanja: How about: they need photoshope in other classes
Chip: Kris... the fact that they want to is important, but what are the results? Better reports, better presentations, newspapers, etc?
Andy Short: ...will it enhance student learning or projects, insturction, the list goes on.
Chip: Right, Andy.
Kris: what if they have different reasons...web, newspaper, presentations
Keith Wayne: We need to focus the results we want, the reason we want them, and the path to getting there.
Kris: but need to know the program first
Karie: And if it can apply to other classes or future learning?
Jenn L: so show how your topic trickles down into other events. Like good study skills leads to more confidence which leads to feeling more comfortable which leads to improved attitude which leads to better
Jenn L: scores
Keith Wayne: IT should be replicable and have a long duration of usefulness.
Jenn Vaschak: This is all starting to make sense
Chip: Generalize it, Kris.... better communications.
Kris: ok, i get it
Andy Short: if we can get then to say, i think i can and then i can we did our job
Chip: Right, Jenn.
Chip: Clearly, it is startng to make sense to many of you. Again, trying it and getting feedback will help.
Keith Wayne: Good!
Chip: OK 1. Optimals--- where do you want to be. 2. Actuals -- where are you now.
Andy Short: i'll go back and look at my draft now
Matt Dockery: Yeah, the feedback will definitely help me
Denise: I have a feeling that we are going to need lots of feedback!
Andy Short: that
Andy Short: is why we are here
Keith Wayne: So we will go to you for feedback Chip and each other as well as we go along.
Keith Wayne: Using forums.
Keith Wayne: ??
Chip: Next you have to look at the REASONS or CAUSES of the gap between those two. You have to show at least conceptually that one important reason for the gap
Keith Wayne: & email
Chip: is a lack of skills and knowledge. Otherwise, why teach them?
Chip: Right, Keith, exactly.
Chip: Again, we don't have time for data gathering, but at least tell me why you think that they can't do thee things (rather than being unmotivated, etc.)
Kris Robenolt: can I gather pre assessment data from my students?
Karie: Can I use something they did earlier in the year that I wasn't satisfied with?
Chip: The last thing in the NA is to give me a clear, succinct statement of the goal of the instruction.... whay will the audience be able to do that they couldn't do before.
Andy Short: Karie that will give you starting point
Chip: Yes, That would be good, Karie.
Chip: Kris, same answer!
Kris Robenolt: okay, thanks
Chip: If you have data that's relevant, great, but we really don't have time to gather new data.
Keith Wayne: We can generalize with this part if we don't have hard data.
Karie: In my case, the reasons students didn't perform as well as I expected varied. That's often the case in a classroom.
Chip: The idea is that the last thing in the NA is the goal statement, and that you have shown us why it is important.
Denise: Can you give us an example of the Statementof goals using one of the examples at the end of the book?
Nancy Vondrak: so we have to give you the optimals and actuals as wella s the clear statement of the golas of the instruction right?
Chip: Right Keith.
Chip: yes, Karie, as long as one of the reasons is that they don't have the skills and knowledge.
Chip: Right, Nancy.
Keith Wayne: Before I forget, is there some Course Compass or something that goes with our textbook - with examples- something online??
Chip: Denise, perhaps we can do that on the forums in Moodle (I don't have the book here).
Karie: It seems like a lot of the book deals with community issues or other things outside a typical classroom.
Chip: No, Keith, at least not what I've ever used....
Karie: Like business/industry examples.
Denise: Sure, that would be helpful. This is the part I need the most help with!
Andy Short: there is a great ex in ch 2
Chip: Some of you are not actually in educational settings, so those examples are relevant to them. We'll try to look at various settings.
Jenn Vaschak: I really need to look at my draft while all of this is fresh
Denise: Of the Clear statement of goal?
Keith Wayne: it talks about a course management site. Is that our Moodle site?
Andy Short: it delivery i think
Chip: The publisher has such a site, but I haven't used it for this course. I looked at it years ago and didn't much like it. I'll take another look (and see if it costs anything).
Chip: We'll start some discussions in the NA forum on Moodle.
Keith Wayne: On page 33, the text talked about a case study focused on school learning on the course management site.
Denise: That would be helpful, thanks!
Chip: Here's the usual pattern for this assignment: 1. read the book, 2. come to class and discuss, etc. 3. complete your draft and submit it, preferably through Moodle,
Andy Short: i have to bathroom break, be righ back.
Karie: Me too
Chip: 4. I'll give feedback within a week. I give the feedback through audio files on the web.
Denise: Are there instructions on how to submit the drafts through Moodle?
Chip: OK, Keith, I'll see if I think it is worth it.
Keith Wayne: okay
Chip: And how we get in.
Nancy Vondrak: is the first draft due the 29th?
Denise: I did the section in Moodle.
Chip: That sounds right, Nancy.
Jenn Vaschak: Can we submit the first draft early?
Denise: Can we only submit the draft once?
Chip: In general, the Moodle assignement will open for submisstion the night we cover it in class and it will be due a week later.
Keith Wayne: :()
Chip: yes, Denise, there simply isn't time to give repeated feedback.
Keith Wayne: :)
Nancy Vondrak: so it opens tonight and is due before next class?
Keith Wayne: :l
Chip: Yes. You can submit late, but you go to the end of the line for gettng feedback.
Matt Dockery: So the one we submit on moodle is our final one?
Chip: It's your draft for getting feedback. The final ones for grading come later.
Keith Wayne: So just so we submit it by Tuesday morning, the 29th, we are "on time"?
Matt Dockery: Ok, so if i have mine now, i could upload it for feedback as we speak?
Chip: I think it might be Tuessday at class time.
Chip: yes, Matt
Denise: Go Matt!
Chip: OK, so: read, class, assighment, feedback, revise for grading.
Andy Short: i'm with you matt
Lauren Davidson: Do we get feedback only or feedback + minimum grade?
Nancy Vondrak: :I wish I were Matt lol
Denise: Me too! :)
Chip: Feedback only at this point. Tentative grades on the
Chip: Analysis Phase will come in a few weeks.
Chip: Feedback is important and interesting. Grades aren't......
Lauren Davidson: ok, thanks! I knew I read about tentative grades on the course website, but I wasn't sure where that was in relation to assignments.
Matt Dockery: I had to spend my Holiday yesterday doing something productive!
Chip: This will be real clear after the first step or two.
Chip: OK, so anything else this evening?
Keith Wayne: nope
Kris: no
Jamie: no
Jenn L: I'm good
Kris Robenolt: I think I'm okay for now
rsynk: gn
Matt Dockery: how do you provide feedback on the moodle site
Karie: When will you post the log? There are some points I want to look back over!
Jenn Vaschak: ok
Matt Dockery: ?
Tanja: I am OK. Thanks.
Nancy Vondrak: good class. Thankx
Chip: I will record y feedback , upload it to the web and give you the URL.
Andy Short: I now have to look over this log and diget it.
Kris: sounds good
Andy Short: digest it
Matt Dockery: ok, thanks....goodnight
Jim Raber: thx, cya online
Chip: I will try to remember to send the log to myself this evening so that I can post it tomrorow.
Karie: Right now I feel like Jim Raber looks :)
Chip: Remind me if you don't see it.
Karie: Or, looked...
Chip: OK, see you all online!
Jenn Vaschak: thanks! Have a great week everybody!
Chip: Bye.
Andy Short: night
Jamie: bye!
Jenn L: see ya
Keith Wayne: good night!
Karie: bye
Nancy Vondrak: bye
Tanja: Good night
Kris Robenolt: good night
Denise: Good night!! Good luck!


© Albert L. Ingram, Ph.D. Revised: February 13, 2008